Tulpa.info - guide-discussion

woah, you go, big guy (edited)

"It doesn't feel like it!" from people that claim to never have done it is a little funny.

Calyra 👻

"It doesn't feel like it!" from people that claim to never have done it is a little funny.

shh you don't want them to hear, they [plural] might secretly be lurking (edited)

1

The only thing confusing about verples soft and hard switching is that it sounds like he's talking about two different results instead of two different methods, and it sounds like one is "better/more intense" than the other.

I think this is a case where terms do a lot to distract from what's going on. If we can't agree on what switching is we have to drill down and describe the experiences instead of trying to build a cordon nobody agrees on. When two people can sit an argue "I haven't done X" and the other says "but you are doing X" and both of them agree about the details of what they're doing in the present, things are wonky in general.

1

8:15 PM

I think generally this boils down to "what you want to do is impossible, settle for less and call that lesser thing by the term you wanted to use for the impossible".

Part of the problem is there's dispute over if switching isn't just possession half the time, so you can't say Ice isn't teaching switching. He definitely is, he's just dodging the term and the negative mindset of switching being hard. Since switching is heavily dependent on mindset, something like this could work. While a little weird, it's possible a more intense experience could lead to stronger belief in the switching experience itself. I know Ember.Vesper's guide involves symbolic shoving and pushing and guiding someone on switching over VC is something I want to further study and look into. If Ice leaves the reference for those who want to use it, I agree that it could potentially help them switch. It wouldn't be helpful for me, but hey, I'm not the target audience of his guide. From a GAT perspective, I would be scratching my head with this one. Aside from the primary-secondary problem, I'm not sure if writing this guide in a traditional way would help the guide. In theory, your thesis shouldn't be a surprise, but it makes sense for what Ice is trying to do (edited)

sh

okay, serious mode engaged, guide rejected ...is what i would say if i was GAT also why are people talking about his character then

This is one of the reasons why I think the GAT system really needs to be rethought. If your focus is to approve or disapprove, it's easy to gloss over constructive criticism. Additionally, the GAT system discourages too much criticism because people get angry when their guide isn't approved

Or sometimes it's not so much them trying to do something impossible, as it is the surreal feelings of novelty/strangeness wearing off getting confused for losing progress. I notice two overall trends with systems that struggle, imo. One is anxious/neurotic mindset that is looking for failure—which they would be probably better served by addressing first. The other is a mindset of switching being something you either do or don't do, maybe like snapping fingers, instead of something like throwing a baseball. You will be capable of throwing a ball (poorly) long before you are effortlessly throwing strikes. It's incremental, not a strict binary. I distinctly remember the latter when they made a comment of "once we actually switch, it shouldn't take effort to maintain the front". Like yes, but actually no. (edited)

8:34 PM

You can name all the different accuracy (endurance) thresholds different things if you want, but I don't think it's very productive. (edited)

I want to argue a counter point for the second argument- Learning to improve my switching skills wasn't a barrier to me switching. When I started switching, I needed to practice being switched-in for longer and longer periods of time, and I also had to learn when to use switching corrections. However, I only started working on this progress once I figured out how to switch. I needed practice with being switched-in, but once I got used to it and better at switching, I never struggled with Gray taking over the front- even when I was doing stupid stuff like punching the steering wheel. Before I learned how to switch, I put huge amounts of effort to keep the front and it was exhausting. (edited)

8:40 PM

*Sorry, critical edits

Woah that's lots of text. @w@. Gonna just quote this part:

Before I learned how to switch, I put huge amounts of effort to keep the front and it was exhausting

Yep. I had the exact same experience

Deleted User

Symbolism never worked for us either. And we disagree tulpamancy is about it.

i also disagree it's not about symbolism - in my opinion it's more about labels. symbolism is just a convoluted set of labels

I'm not actually sure why it is that possession took so much energy

I mean, everything the brain does is effectively symbolism in a sense.

it's true

You will be capable of throwing a ball (poorly) long before you are effortlessly throwing strikes. It's incremental, not a strict binary.

I stay very focused on the vocality/communication side of things, not the switching side of things, so this is largely speaking about that half, but this is something that really frustrates me about the community. 90% of guides tend to roughly follow the pattern of "here's how to get started, do it until you're good." I want to see real in depth guides from a person who struggles and fights from day one of a super weak and non-existant tulpa and an in depth "training regimen" for taking those experiences up and up until they're great. Things that, rather than giving you a rough "force and it'll work out" tell you all the many skills you'll be working with, roadblocks you may face, and solutions to the roadblocks. A hundred pages of tiny incremental steps and concrete activities you can do to take them.

I think me using "symbolism" was not using the right terms tbh.

Nat Osaka

I'm not actually sure why it is that possession took so much energy

For me it wasn't that possession was hard, it was keeping Gray from accidentally taking over that was

A long kiss goodnight

For me it wasn't that possession was hard, it was keeping Gray from accidentally taking over that was

Yeah I've had that experience too with Nia.

8:43 PM

But... I'm not sure that's what was exhausting.

8:43 PM

Maybe it was, but it felt like there was such a thing as fronting fatigue for a bit

In our experience I know exactly why possession takes more energy—its very deliberate, intentional, focused, and conscious as opposed to switching which is more automatic and can take advantage of assumption that you are the default actor.

1

I practiced possession over the course of a month or something, increasing time in front by 30 minutes every 2 days

8:44 PM

Once I reached 12 hours, I didn't have trouble anymore

8:45 PM

But up until that time, I had a ton of trouble

Reguile

You will be capable of throwing a ball (poorly) long before you are effortlessly throwing strikes. It's incremental, not a strict binary.

I stay very focused on the vocality/communication side of things, not the switching side of things, so this is largely speaking about that half, but this is something that really frustrates me about the community. 90% of guides tend to roughly follow the pattern of "here's how to get started, do it until you're good." I want to see real in depth guides from a person who struggles and fights from day one of a super weak and non-existant tulpa and an in depth "training regimen" for taking those experiences up and up until they're great. Things that, rather than giving you a rough "force and it'll work out" tell you all the many skills you'll be working with, roadblocks you may face, and solutions to the roadblocks. A hundred pages of tiny incremental steps and concrete activities you can do to take them.

I'm not sure how long my switching guide will be, but it's going to be a nightmare to organize. There's lots of stuff I want to talk about from fronting symbolism, how to learn how to switch, why blacking out, and a whole bunch of other things

8:45 PM

I'm guessing maybe 40 pages right now

40 pages wow

I think I have 30-40 pages of notes in my Google Doc files (edited)

why not just say "just do it" squee

My first thought is like... that would overwhelm the hell out of me

8:47 PM

But... in our experience, there is a lot of understanding that was required in order for us to switch

8:47 PM

Yes, it's something you just do, but unless you know how your brain works, you'll have a lot harder of a time (edited)

In our experience I know exactly why possession takes more energy—its very deliberate, intentional, focused, and conscious as opposed to switching which is more automatic and can take advantage of assumption that you are the default actor.

I mean yes, but also no? I needed breaks for possession when I learned how to do it, and with switching it felt like I had to start all over again. However, I do agree that in theory switching should be more efficient (it feels weird to possess yourself...)

Switching, once we learned how, was much MUCH easier

Yes, indeed

8:49 PM

For us though, we added a complicated ritual to switching to keep possession

Oh?

Yup, we still use possession on a regular basis. Gray is slowly getting better and better at it, but going through that helped me realize how much work the host being possessed does

I may have missed something. There was a lot of text, but why keep it?

Reguile

You will be capable of throwing a ball (poorly) long before you are effortlessly throwing strikes. It's incremental, not a strict binary.

I stay very focused on the vocality/communication side of things, not the switching side of things, so this is largely speaking about that half, but this is something that really frustrates me about the community. 90% of guides tend to roughly follow the pattern of "here's how to get started, do it until you're good." I want to see real in depth guides from a person who struggles and fights from day one of a super weak and non-existant tulpa and an in depth "training regimen" for taking those experiences up and up until they're great. Things that, rather than giving you a rough "force and it'll work out" tell you all the many skills you'll be working with, roadblocks you may face, and solutions to the roadblocks. A hundred pages of tiny incremental steps and concrete activities you can do to take them.

Now that is a guide that would be worth being long, giving plenty of different examples and excercise, roughly organized by required development level. You could then use the particular excercises that are most meaningful and engaging to you and/or your tulpa, and roughly tell what "level" you're at and should be focusing on based on how difficult they are right now.

1

why would anyone want possession when they can switch beside the lewd stuff?

why would anyone want possession when they can switch

Yeah, that's what I'm wondrering

beside the lewd stuff?

Wh-

What possession instead of switching has to do with lewd stuff?

Yeah I'm not sure either

i heard that in the past

You guys must not have dirty minds because I immediately had a few ideas

1

Nat Osaka

I may have missed something. There was a lot of text, but why keep it?

I have a few reasons, and I actually explained this to Jaeth:

There are a few reasons:

1) We can be sloppy without becoming unstable. Gray and the others don't have to ask to possess, and if I don't like it I can kick them out. We don't have to worry about our switching schedule if Gray wanted to chat on Discord, and I can still do mostly everything I want to do while switched-out.

2) Possession acts as a slight sensory / anxiety barrier. In our system, the closer you are to the front the more sensitive you are to our general anxiety. If I'm stressed out, I get a little bit of protection from the brain's constant stream of anxiety by not being switched-in. It also makes it easier to think logically and be slightly less influenced by hunger, fatigue, heat, etc. The possessor can also sidestep pain as well.

3) It allows our headmates to control the body. Only I and Gray are allowed to switch, our other headmates have not earned our trust to switch yet. However, we want to give our headmates the opportunity to interact with others are talk online. Granting them possession makes things easier.

It's because of that lewd guide with master and slave. It has corrupted our poor proxi ;-;

Even when we were doing in-system sex, we never really used possession? It was mostly all in wonderland

1

A long kiss goodnight

I have a few reasons, and I actually explained this to Jaeth:

There are a few reasons:

1) We can be sloppy without becoming unstable. Gray and the others don't have to ask to possess, and if I don't like it I can kick them out. We don't have to worry about our switching schedule if Gray wanted to chat on Discord, and I can still do mostly everything I want to do while switched-out.

2) Possession acts as a slight sensory / anxiety barrier. In our system, the closer you are to the front the more sensitive you are to our general anxiety. If I'm stressed out, I get a little bit of protection from the brain's constant stream of anxiety by not being switched-in. It also makes it easier to think logically and be slightly less influenced by hunger, fatigue, heat, etc. The possessor can also sidestep pain as well.

3) It allows our headmates to control the body. Only I and Gray are allowed to switch, our other headmates have not earned our trust to switch yet. However, we want to give our headmates the opportunity to interact with others are talk online. Granting them possession makes things easier.

2) if you are stressed, and you possess because you want to put a barrier between you and anxiety, who's in the front?

Deleted User

2) if you are stressed, and you possess because you want to put a barrier between you and anxiety, who's in the front?

It must be Gray if I'm possessing

8:56 PM

He would be switched-in

can Gray feel anxiety when you do that

8:56 PM

?

A long kiss goodnight

I have a few reasons, and I actually explained this to Jaeth:

There are a few reasons:

1) We can be sloppy without becoming unstable. Gray and the others don't have to ask to possess, and if I don't like it I can kick them out. We don't have to worry about our switching schedule if Gray wanted to chat on Discord, and I can still do mostly everything I want to do while switched-out.

2) Possession acts as a slight sensory / anxiety barrier. In our system, the closer you are to the front the more sensitive you are to our general anxiety. If I'm stressed out, I get a little bit of protection from the brain's constant stream of anxiety by not being switched-in. It also makes it easier to think logically and be slightly less influenced by hunger, fatigue, heat, etc. The possessor can also sidestep pain as well.

3) It allows our headmates to control the body. Only I and Gray are allowed to switch, our other headmates have not earned our trust to switch yet. However, we want to give our headmates the opportunity to interact with others are talk online. Granting them possession makes things easier.

Hmm... it's still your brain at the end of the day. I don't think there are going to be any major conflicts of interests that would endanger anyone.

A long kiss goodnight

Even when we were doing in-system sex, we never really used possession? It was mostly all in wonderland

Same for us

Wait hold up possession is for lewds?

Nat Osaka

Yes, it's something you just do, but unless you know how your brain works, you'll have a lot harder of a time (edited)

I think it's possible to do it either that way or like how we did, mostly brute force and leaning on crutches initially like music and particular situations where motivation was extra high. I'm sure our brain ultimately had to figure out and understand what it was doing but in our case I don't think that understanding bubbled up to a conscious level. So we would probably make horrible teachers and that's why the "just do it" advice resonates so strongly.

We were learning for 3 years until we got it ;w;

Calyra 👻

I think it's possible to do it either that way or like how we did, mostly brute force and leaning on crutches initially like music and particular situations where motivation was extra high. I'm sure our brain ultimately had to figure out and understand what it was doing but in our case I don't think that understanding bubbled up to a conscious level. So we would probably make horrible teachers and that's why the "just do it" advice resonates so strongly.

And that was only once we started dissecting stuff (introspection)

Reguile

You guys must not have dirty minds because I immediately had a few ideas

Even I'm lost

there should be a switching guide with that gif and that's it

1

Zen

Wait hold up possession is for lewds?

to the tune of "the internet is for porn"

is it really just reguile that understood what i meant

8:59 PM

（〃｀ 3′〃）

2) if you are stressed, and you possess because you want to put a barrier between you and anxiety, who's in the front?

@Deleted User - jump dissociation is in front.

can Gray feel anxiety when you do that

@deleted_user_588d55f7aad6 - jump Anyone can feel anxiety anywhere, including the back (panic attacks in the back are somehow worse in a way). If Ranger is anxious and possessing me, I do become more anxious because the body reacts to Ranger. However, if I'm emotionally removed, I can help the body quickly recover or help keep Ranger calm. The last time this happened though, I was upset about the issue but for a different reason. I was emotionally detached enough I could talk about it though.

vͮiͥxͯiͥeͤ | 👻

2) if you are stressed, and you possess because you want to put a barrier between you and anxiety, who's in the front?

@Deleted User - jump dissociation is in front.

yeah these were my thoughts (edited)

If a tulpa were to posess your arm and slapped you in the fact it would be almost as if someone else slapped your face.

Anyone can feel anxiety anywhere, including the back (panic attacks in the back are somehow worse in a way). If Ranger is anxious and possessing me, I do become more anxious because the body reacts to Ranger. However, if I'm emotionally removed, I can help the body quickly recover or help keep Ranger calm. The last time this happened though, I was upset about the issue but for a different reason. I was emotionally detached enough I could talk about it though.

@Gray | Shadow System (@A long kiss goodnight) - jump we get that. Hanging out while disconnected somewhat definitely has a numbing effect for us. Also being disconnected helps our reasoning (to a degree) since we're not as affected by urges

(not saying this as an assertion, but to hint hint)

Deleted User

there should be a switching guide with that gif and that's it

Congratulations, you just made it!

9:01 PM

suddenly milions of tulpamancers got what switching is!

~~I can just imagine felight boiling over in response to that~~

Reguile

(not saying this as an assertion, but to hint hint)

i think they are just making fun of me because they didn't expect me to talk about things like that after integration!

Reguile

If a tulpa were to posess your arm and slapped you in the fact it would be almost as if someone else slapped your face.

I hear it works even better if you sit on it first before slapping yourself.

If a tulpa were to posess your arm and slapped you in the fact it would be almost as if someone else slapped your face.

I'm not trying that in practice, but I don't think that's completely true. Possession can feel like you unless you focus on it, but not everyone agrees even that's a thing

9:04 PM

I hear it works even better if you sit on it first before slapping yourself.

@Calyra 👻 - jump Well... I guess if you go there then that wouldn't feel normal.

oh dear lily

9:06 PM

i just tried, i can definitely touch my arm and feel it's someone else touching me

It's a shame the most common uses for partial possession seems to be holding hands/reassurance or for sexual interaction. I think partial possession can be used for co-fronting, but beyond that I think it's uses are pretty limited

very easily

9:06 PM

but that's probably easier because of constant depersonalisation

Just touching Ranger's face (I'm not slapping him), it feels like Ranger touching himself and a little bit not like Ranger touching himself. I think our presence imposition / touch imposition is coming into play

can you do it in a way that it feels like someone else, but noone in particular touches you?

We were just testing that actually. I laid my arm down and let Gray open and close my right hand. It seems normal until there's that feeling Gray isn't actually moving my hand, and then it gives me alien vibes. I'm surprised I didn't notice a tingling sensation like Gray would with me

i think the training for possession would be getting that alien feeling first, and then labeling it with a tulpa

A long kiss goodnight

It's a shame the most common uses for partial possession seems to be holding hands/reassurance or for sexual interaction. I think partial possession can be used for co-fronting, but beyond that I think it's uses are pretty limited

We still hold hands like that sometimes. It's nice.

A long kiss goodnight

It's a shame the most common uses for partial possession seems to be holding hands/reassurance or for sexual interaction. I think partial possession can be used for co-fronting, but beyond that I think it's uses are pretty limited

We rather do touch imposition for stuff like that lately.

Deleted User

i think the training for possession would be getting that alien feeling first, and then labeling it with a tulpa

That's not how we did it actually. I learned to full-body possess by having Gray act out my movements in wonderland until I was acting out my movements in wonderland (edited)

9:14 PM

Possession by proxy

No need to force depersonalization to to those things. Don't do possession, move hand yourself and imagine the part you touch with that hand belongs to your tulpa.

I agree, and I wonder if expecting an alien response is what holds people back

Deleted User

No need to force depersonalization to to those things. Don't do possession, move hand yourself and imagine the part you touch with that hand belongs to your tulpa.

that's basically depersonalisation though